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Quick Logic: Kaio-ken, Tenshinhan, Super Saiyan
Topic Started: Feb 6 2012, 04:20 AM (2,290 Views)
Kruegs Outlandish
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QUICK LOGIC: Kaio-ken, Tenshinhan, Super Saiyan

Assume that Kaio-ken is still canonically relevant after Frieza Saga.

Tenshinhan obviously knows of the mechanics of Kaio-ken; he is the guy who states that Goku should have been able to use Kaio-ken ×10.

Herms, Strength Checker
 
Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P14.2-5
Tenshinhan: "There's nothing to worry about. Goku will win this match...Aren't you forgetting about the Kaio-ken? As he is now, Goku is able to endure a maximum of up to about 10 times his power, right?"
Kaio: "Unfortunately... That Ten-Fold Kaio-ken is what Goku is using now..."
Tenshinhan knows that Goku as a Super Saiyan, should be hella strong.

Herms, Strength Checker
 
Chapter: 328 (DBZ 134), P1.4-5, P2.1
Context: after learning that Goku beat Freeza
Tenshinhan: "B-but, to think that a Super Saiyan would be so incredible...Now Goku's strength is the best in the universe...It's like he's become someone on a distant world..."
Kaio: "He might only be able to be best in the universe for a brief instant..."
Tenshinhan senses Future Trunks and Goku become Super Saiyans after Trunks disposed of Frieza, and, also, three years later against Artificial Humans #19 and #20.

Herms, Strength Checker
 
Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P13.1-2
Tenshinhan: "Wh-what a ki! Amazing...! S-so this is Goku as a Super Saiyan...?!"
Piccolo: "..."

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: "In-incredible...What strength...S-so that's a Super Saiyan...He's in a completely different dimension than we are...Too different..."
Piccolo: "...I wonder..."

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P7.4
Tenshinhan: "There's no need to worry. Goku is outrageously strong. This 'Super Saiyan' thing is incredible...! These guys talk big, but they're helpless."

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9.
Piccolo: "Have you noticed too, Gohan?..."
Gohan: "Y-yes..."
Piccolo: "Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason...He's already putting out close to his full power...But even so, what's with that miserable condition of his?..."
Tenshinhan: "Th-that miserable condition...!? What are you talking about? Goku's overwhelmingly pushing him back...!"
Piccolo: "It's not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku's power should be more stupendous than this..."
Therefore, you would assume that the Super Saiyan power boost would be well over ×10. Tenshinhan should not be incredibly awed by power × 10.
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+ Pyrus
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Then how about 15x?
Spoiler: click to toggle
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Kruegs Outlandish
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why not... or Kaioken x 20 ? Tenshinhan would know about that :) .
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Mysterious9001
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Sadly, Kaio-ken isn't relevant.
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Kruegs Outlandish
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↑ but the topic says assume, Pyro; hence your post is not relevant, :) .


 Posted Image Mysterious9001 likes this.
Edited by Kruegs Outlandish, Feb 6 2012, 11:55 AM.
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+ Clearin
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Isn't it obvious? When Toriyama said he imagined it being 10x stronger he meant x10 stronger than Kaioken x20 Goku. So SSj is actually x200 of base.

But nah, Toriyama's just very forgetful. I don't think he actually had a multiplier myself, he probably just said "Goku is now strong enough to do this ______"
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Kruegs Outlandish
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↑ but Toriyama realized pretty quickly that x10 wasn't right. SOOOO... OOO... SSJ is really 20 * 10 * 50 which is 10000 x power...

but tbh 50 :) . or at least 48.4
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lunar2
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when making your calculation, you forgot about base differences.

base goku >>> tien at the android saga.

goku skipped powering up in base, and went straight to ssj, which would have caused the ssj multiplier to seem larger than it actually is.

also, @kkx20. kkx20 was never a safe level of kaioken, and couldn't be expected to work at any given time. a 10x ssj matches the highest safe level of kaioken (x10) without having the drawbacks of the technique, which is all that's required to justify using ssj instead of kaioken.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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lunar2
Feb 6 2012, 03:46 PM
when making your calculation, you forgot about base differences.

base goku >>> tien at the android saga.

goku skipped powering up in base, and went straight to ssj, which would have caused the ssj multiplier to seem larger than it actually is.

also, @kkx20. kkx20 was never a safe level of kaioken, and couldn't be expected to work at any given time. a 10x ssj matches the highest safe level of kaioken (x10) without having the drawbacks of the technique, which is all that's required to justify using ssj instead of kaioken.
It still seems silly. "This is the legendary form that has been played up over the last 5 volumes! It's exactly the same multiplier as Goku can handle safely in Kaioken!"

I use x10 myself, but it's still silly to have Goku basically become a beta-Super Saiyan using a technique someone of any race can learn. And even surpass it, even if unsafely.
Edited by Clearin, Feb 6 2012, 04:01 PM.
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Kruegs Outlandish
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lunar2
Feb 6 2012, 03:46 PM
when making your calculation, you forgot about base differences.

base goku >>> tien at the android saga.

goku skipped powering up in base, and went straight to ssj, which would have caused the ssj multiplier to seem larger than it actually is.

also, @kkx20. kkx20 was never a safe level of kaioken, and couldn't be expected to work at any given time. a 10x ssj matches the highest safe level of kaioken (x10) without having the drawbacks of the technique, which is all that's required to justify using ssj instead of kaioken.
Good thing you mention this (first point); I actually did not forget this.

Per Goku >>> Ten, by the time Goku arrives on Namek, he already heavily outclasses Tenshinhan severely. [1]

Both Kaio-ken and SSJ are power-up techniques; that fact would apply to both; Goku at Ginyu wasn't at full power, and Ginyu was able to estimate him at 85 000; Ginyu tells him to power up to full and then Goku uses Kaioken instantly powers up to 90 000.

Herms
Strength Checker
Chapter: 283 (DBZ 89), P11.1-3
Ginyu: "In my estimation, his ability looks like it's about 60,000."
Jheese: "Six... 60,000!? H-he's a Saiyan!! Whoever heard of a Saiyan at 60,000...?!!"
Ginyu: "It's not impossible. He could be like us, a super-gifted warrior, born as a mutant...Looks like this will be an unprecedentedly entertaining battle...I never thought the time would come for me to show my true power."

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P3.6
Context: after fighting Goku for a little bit
Ginyu: "I see. Seems you're even more capable than I thought..."

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P13.4
Context: after letting Goku go
Ginyu: "You're hiding even greater power! Did you really think that I wouldn't notice...?! You were probably intending to preserve your power in preparation for fighting Lord Freeza, but don't you underestimate me! I'm excited about having an entertaining fight for a change! So don't do anything stupid!"

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P14.1
Context: after Goku tells him to watch his scouter
Ginyu: "Kukkukku... I don't have to look at my scouter. You should most likely be able to raise it up to 85,000."

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P14.6-7
Context: as Goku starts using the Kaio-ken
Ginyu: "Ni... 90,000...?! 100,000... 110,000... I'm... impossible... it can't be... It's st... still rising...!"

Chapter: 285 (DBZ 91), P1.2-3, P2.2
Context: as Goku continues to use the Kaio-ken
Ginyu: "Twe... 120,000... 130,000... 140,000... It's sti... sti... still rising... !!!! It... it can't be... 160,000... "Eigh... 180,000...?! Un...unbelievable...Th-this is your true power...?!!"
So, I'd be safe in assuming that Tenshinhan would be familiar with such a power. Powering up is required for both, I left it out for this reason.
[1] Aside, I doubt Tenshinhan would be incredibly impressed that Goku's base is crazy power, especially since everyone knows that everyone can suppress pretty much.
Edited by Kruegs Outlandish, Feb 6 2012, 05:18 PM.
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Wasn't it dangerous and too intense on the body to use Kaioken passed a certain degree. I think that with Goku's new base powerlevel, Using a 10-20x Kaioken gives much more fatigue to the body that a Super Saiyan transformation. So I think GOku using KK passed a point is probably something he only does when trying to hide his true power but in the end going Super Saiyan is the easier transformation on his body.

As for Tien using it, he still has his limits as well. Going beyond KK x20 is something we've only seen Goku do, so maybe his body isn't capable of something like x 50. However yea I think Tien + KKx20 or something would match up with a Super Saiyan? He probably can't go beyond that however. It's too much for him.

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lunar2
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tien likely never learned to perform a true kaioken. when he arrived on king kai's planet, he stated that he planned on taking the gist of king kai's teachings, and using that to polish his own techniques. next time we see him fight, his tribeam that couldn't hurt nappa became the neo tribeam that could hold down cell. i think in his case, that's where the kaioken and spirit bomb went.

@bizness. what I'm saying is that during the fight with frieza, tien was able to examine goku's power and technique, and determine his capabilities from that, much like ginyu estimated how much goku was holding back after seeing him fight. during the android saga, tien didn't have that oppurtunity, so all he saw was a massive power up, without any context to put it in.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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Kruegs Outlandish
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↑ Tenshinhan was also able to notice that Goku seemed winded merely from flying; this is something that no one else mentions, should they have caught it. I wouldn't doubt that Tenshinhan could sense that Goku was suppressed, and that he could have risen base substantially, but there is no real reason as to why Goku would be suppressing more of his power than anyone else was suppressing their powers.

Barring Piccolo, whom shows the ability to massively power up like Super Saiyans (likely a side effect of Namekian fusion), they would more likely being using about a half to a third of their power, standing. The only time Goku pulls "5 000 but really like 90 000" moves is which he's gauging an opponent. The Z Warriors all knew that the Cyborgs had a reputation, and that he would most likely need Super Saiyan.
Edited by Kruegs Outlandish, Feb 6 2012, 06:58 PM.
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Paikuan extreme
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But this is all believing tht goku WOULDNT use kaioken while in SSJ, when toei and even AT think different, At may have forgotten or simply just said, you know i LIKE toei's idea, so lets do it, lets include a scene where goku uses the KK in ssj, cause in ssj especially as an mSSj, goku could multiply his ultimate strength level.

Meaning that if he used KK while in ssj against cell? he would have been equal to a low level ssj2 and destroyed cell without needing gohan to flip out.

it seems evident from the lack of it being mentioned that ssj is the new power up, but ssj, JUST like kaioken, had its limits also, induced ALOT of stress, and made any saiyan aggressive and battle ready.

Goku becoming an MSSj threw all of that out of the window, which is why the kaioken in ssj seems so much more plausible now.

it would have been like powering up to a savage version of ssj2. without the training.

tien is a ki master, just like goku he learned roshis technique from simply seeing it. His reading of power levels is important to all the humans, which is another reason why he rivals krillin so well. They both took roshi and korins techniques seriously.
Edited by Paikuan extreme, Feb 25 2012, 06:48 PM.
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XxSkelterXx sucks
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Goku tried to a 20x kk against Freeza. Which we all know he could do for long. On those grounds ssj is at least a 20x. Because I said so bitches!
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